Games and Education

Toby and Huiqi have a conversation about games and education.

Transcript

The following transcript was automatically generated by an algorithm.

00:00 : um i'm
00:03 : i'm interested in making video games
00:06 : right now
00:09 : because i um there's this guy that i've
00:12 : been
00:13 : following for a while now his name is
00:15 : jonathan blow
00:16 : and he he's a game developer like he
00:19 : made
00:20 : a few very popular games so he's
00:23 : kind of well known and
00:27 : and for for five years he's been
00:31 : working on this programming language for
00:34 : building games
00:35 : um in to to for him
00:39 : it's to replace c plus um
00:43 : and but anyway so this
00:46 : is the guy i've been following in uh
00:50 : a few months ago he did this talk
00:53 : on youtube it's that's called
00:57 : video games and the future of education
01:00 : and uh basically he's saying that
01:05 : um
01:06 : [Music]
01:09 : like well first of all there's a whole
01:11 : bunch of stuff
01:12 : that like mainstream education
01:16 : gets it wrong and he's right about that
01:19 : like this
01:21 : um there's
01:24 : like the reward system particularly
01:28 : in the in the educational system is
01:33 : there's a lot of problems with using
01:38 : a system of punishment and reward to try
01:41 : to get the students
01:42 : to learn um
01:45 : you know including like if you give
01:49 : if you give children like stickers or
01:53 : give them points uh test taking
01:56 : like if if you're gonna give them a good
01:58 : score versus a bad score
02:01 : that's that's to them
02:04 : that's mostly like a punishment and
02:06 : reward kind of thing
02:09 : and you're you're asking them like if
02:11 : you do well
02:13 : then they'll get this good score if you
02:16 : don't
02:16 : you get this bad score so
02:19 : there's a lot of negative consequences
02:21 : that come from that
02:23 : um and the main one is that
02:27 : they will be much more concerned about
02:31 : sort of how well they're doing as
02:34 : perceived by
02:36 : others
02:37 : [Music]
02:39 : which is like there's like
02:42 : it's the teachers but also your peers
02:44 : right because like
02:46 : my kids actually talk to other kids
02:49 : about
02:50 : like they kind of know they talk they
02:53 : can't know what each other's
02:55 : scores are and uh and when you're very
02:59 : aware of that and
03:00 : think about that a lot that actually
03:02 : takes away from
03:04 : your performance in in doing the actual
03:07 : work
03:08 : um you're
03:12 : it it's like the worry that i oh i talk
03:15 : about a lot
03:16 : like that they're too worried about
03:18 : their scores
03:19 : to be 100 focus on doing
03:22 : the work whatever work that might be um
03:26 : so anyway so anyway that that's that's
03:29 : like a
03:31 : know to just this like education
03:35 : mainstream education has some problems
03:37 : and that's a big one
03:39 : um and the thing about video games
03:43 : is like tons and tons of kids play video
03:48 : games now
03:50 : um
03:53 : like so many that i i heard do you know
03:56 : the game
03:57 : among us yeah yeah i'm sure you know
04:00 : about it because everybody knows about
04:01 : it
04:02 : um i think like
04:05 : more than two-thirds of american kids
04:10 : play it that are the statistics
04:15 : that's a statistic that i've heard so
04:18 : so there's there's other games that are
04:20 : extremely popular like like
04:22 : minecraft roblox there's a few games
04:25 : that are extremely popular with
04:27 : kids and if all these kids are playing
04:31 : it
04:32 : like all of these games
04:35 : have these very complex universes
04:38 : within them and all these kids are very
04:42 : knowledgeable about these systems
04:44 : within these games and right
04:47 : so my thought was like hey
04:51 : um like the kids
04:54 : don't the kids are very good at learning
04:58 : by themselves like my my
05:01 : my kid did a presentation about
05:03 : minecraft and then
05:05 : he knows so much about minecraft that if
05:08 : you get him
05:09 : to tell you everything he knows about
05:11 : minecraft like
05:12 : the the content for the paper he had to
05:15 : write was very easy
05:16 : it comes straight comes right out of him
05:19 : he knows all the stuff like all i had to
05:22 : do is
05:22 : ask him hey what is interesting about
05:25 : minecraft what are the things you like
05:27 : to do about minecraft oh
05:29 : you like to make weapons how do you make
05:32 : weapons oh and then he's like
05:34 : all of this information is coming right
05:36 : out of him so like he learns
05:38 : all of this stuff by himself and there
05:40 : doesn't need to be a
05:41 : teacher sitting down with him telling
05:43 : him information he like did this
05:45 : completely on
05:46 : on his own like he knows this stuff
05:48 : better than me
05:49 : and his mom right so yeah
05:53 : so so i was thinking hey maybe uh
05:57 : so so anyway this jonathan blow guy
06:00 : basically saying like we can
06:02 : we can use games as a way to teach
06:05 : people stuff the only problem right now
06:09 : is
06:10 : well okay so i i would argue that these
06:13 : games
06:14 : do teach some things that are useful
06:17 : but but mostly
06:20 : you know it
06:23 : the problem is like how do you make the
06:26 : teaching
06:27 : more applicable to
06:31 : or or how do you teach them skills that
06:34 : they actually use in the real world
06:39 : um so yeah educational
06:44 : kind of you're thinking i'm not like
06:46 : just a just normal
06:48 : game in terms of like
06:52 : well well okay so yeah so there's
06:55 : there's actually a lot of people
06:58 : yeah yeah yeah um like can we use video
07:02 : games
07:03 : uh in an educational way and
07:07 : there are people already doing that
07:09 : there's a lot of educational games being
07:11 : made
07:13 : and some of them being used and there
07:15 : are some that are
07:16 : good even but a lot of times
07:21 : a lot of times those games aren't
07:24 : done in the best way in
07:28 : in the
07:31 : uh like like a
07:34 : really good game is really fun to play
07:38 : and and draws people in automatically
07:41 : like if you're if you if you manage to
07:44 : build
07:44 : a really fun game then
07:48 : it's like the people are playing the
07:49 : game for fun right
07:51 : not like and they don't need to be told
07:54 : hey you have to do this they like they
07:57 : want to play the game
07:59 : they want they voluntarily put in time
08:02 : into playing the game
08:03 : and and they're actually they choose to
08:05 : do it
08:07 : i think that's a huge part of um
08:12 : motivation as well is when when somebody
08:15 : does something
08:17 : they choose to do it versus
08:20 : you ask them to do it and if if they
08:24 : chose to do it
08:26 : they are so much more into it they're so
08:29 : much more focused
08:31 : on actually doing the things right
08:35 : whatever the things are but if you told
08:39 : them hey
08:41 : you you play that educational game
08:44 : which like it's like there's this game
08:47 : called spelling city that
08:49 : their their school makes them
08:52 : play sometimes for their homework right
08:54 : like for your homework you have to
08:56 : play this game then
08:59 : um it's not quite as good
09:03 : it can still be good but it's not quite
09:05 : as good i think
09:07 : um but anyway um
09:13 : [Music]
09:16 : maybe just because spelling itself is
09:18 : not funny though
09:19 : like because the purpose is for you to
09:20 : learn to spell
09:22 : so how can you make a spell what just
09:27 : oh how can you make spelling fun um
09:30 : there are exam there are there's a app
09:34 : called
09:34 : wordscape that have you heard of that
09:37 : app
09:39 : no okay i think it's like go check it
09:43 : out like wordscape
09:44 : is a good example of
09:48 : a game that's fun and it teaches you
09:52 : about spelling
09:54 : um yeah
09:58 : uh so so basically it comes down to
10:01 : like there's a lot of game design
10:05 : like like you have you need to be
10:08 : good at game design basically to do this
10:11 : stuff well
10:13 : which is interesting so anyway that's
10:16 : something i've been thinking about
10:18 : that's something i didn't think about i
10:19 : might try
10:22 : yeah that's a fun thing that i think i'm
10:24 : also interested in
10:26 : for sure yeah it's like doing
10:29 : like that's like
10:32 : kind of
10:36 : fun and has a ui and then it can do
10:39 : things
10:40 : in general oh yeah yeah yeah yeah
10:43 : building
10:44 : building games yeah building games are
10:47 : fun
10:47 : vegan games are fun
10:49 : [Music]
10:52 : do you play a lot of games
10:57 : uh mostly on the phone like the small
11:00 : one my favorite game is called a
11:02 : monument valley um i don't know whether
11:05 : you heard it
11:06 : no monument valley okay it's a fun game
11:13 : um i think it's super well executed
11:16 : um okay like yeah
11:20 : yeah okay yeah
11:23 : so i think like i i'm
11:27 : i'm kind of interested in exploring
11:29 : whether
11:30 : you could like use the format of a game
11:34 : to teach anything
11:37 : or like or like if if you can't do it
11:40 : with
11:40 : anything at all
11:43 : then it like then what is the range of
11:46 : things you can teach
11:47 : with the games format um
11:51 : like is it is it possible like like what
11:54 : is the realm of possibility
11:56 : and i um and i feel like
12:00 : like looking at some of the games and
12:02 : the ones that are well done
12:05 : they really they really
12:08 : i i like the ones that are
12:11 : you know you you they are they're
12:14 : setting up the levels
12:16 : so that it automatically teaches you the
12:18 : concepts
12:19 : that you like a lot of these puzzle
12:21 : solving games
12:24 : um they they set up the levels to be
12:28 : like from easy to like gradually harder
12:31 : and harder and
12:32 : and they set it up carefully so that
12:37 : like it's an incremental
12:41 : accumulation of knowledge like this
12:44 : level you learn about this thing
12:47 : and then you and then they also get you
12:50 : to utilize the new concept in a few more
12:52 : levels to to train you up
12:54 : and then they introduce another thing so
12:57 : it's very much like
12:59 : uh writing up lessons um
13:02 : when i was a teacher um but but they
13:06 : do it in an even more detailed way than
13:09 : i was doing
13:10 : because when i write lessons i and
13:13 : if i don't do it in a perfectly smooth
13:16 : way
13:17 : i you know because i didn't have time to
13:20 : do all of that
13:21 : you know because i have to teach the
13:23 : next day then i would in class
13:26 : i would just try to make adjustments and
13:28 : say oh shoot
13:29 : they didn't get that at all and i'll try
13:31 : to fill it in
13:34 : but with the game they basically have to
13:36 : craft
13:37 : sort of every single level uh
13:41 : you know they have to order them in a
13:44 : very very smooth way
13:46 : they basically have to build this like
13:48 : the good ones anyway
13:50 : they managed to uh build this perfect
13:53 : lesson plan in a sense that the
13:57 : the entire trajectory of the course is
14:00 : very smooth uh and is very incremental
14:04 : and now it is still
14:08 : it's still possible that it's still very
14:10 : possible that
14:11 : somebody will just get stuck at some
14:13 : place
14:14 : even the good even the good games
14:17 : somebody will get stuck
14:18 : in some place and they're gonna not
14:21 : continue
14:21 : they're just gonna do something else
14:23 : maybe play a different game or something
14:26 : so that's always a problem i think
14:34 : when to me is like if the student can
14:38 : use
14:39 : what they have learned to do like
14:41 : something that's like concrete
14:43 : and then they get rewards because they
14:46 : do that thing
14:47 : for whatever reason i feel like that's
14:49 : like really motivated
14:51 : um um
14:54 : yeah i think kind of i
14:58 : like my inclination like jonathan blow
15:02 : philosophy and i agree with him on this
15:05 : point is
15:07 : that like i prefer to downplay the
15:09 : reward
15:10 : uh downplay the down
15:14 : let's say downplay the additional reward
15:16 : um
15:17 : and like don't i prefer to not give them
15:21 : extra things like hey here's
15:24 : like 50 coins for solving that puzzle
15:27 : that kind of thing which
15:28 : most games do that most games give you
15:30 : some sort of
15:31 : points or coins or some games are like
15:36 : like i i played this or
15:39 : watch this one game watch somebody play
15:41 : this one game
15:42 : and every time you solve the puzzle
15:45 : there's a big yay
15:46 : you know because you're you're because
15:49 : you're a kid
15:50 : yay and there's all these monsters are
15:53 : like
15:54 : throwing their arms up in the air at the
15:55 : same time and go yay
15:57 : um i prefer to downplay those things
16:01 : and because that is the part where
16:05 : the the player is
16:09 : gonna you're gonna orient the player
16:11 : towards
16:13 : wanting those kinds of affirmations
16:16 : um whereas if you don't if you don't
16:20 : give those um
16:24 : then they will just enjoy
16:27 : just the being able to solve the problem
16:30 : in of itself
16:33 : and and and i think that makes sense
16:36 : because like you you can
16:38 : people definitely get a huge huge
16:43 : uh throat of reward for themselves
16:46 : when they try really hard at something
16:49 : and finally manage to solve the problem
16:52 : they they get they get enormous
16:54 : satisfaction just from that
16:56 : um and if you in addition
17:00 : if you add this extra side thing that's
17:03 : like oh you just got
17:06 : 50 coins and and then but maybe the next
17:09 : one
17:09 : like they really enjoyed solving that
17:12 : one but you only give them
17:13 : 10 coins are they supposed to be less
17:15 : excited about that one
17:16 : that they only got the ten coins
17:22 : it's so
17:26 : okay
17:30 : uh yeah the the audio yours your voice
17:33 : is kind of lagging today
17:36 : right like i don't know can you say
17:40 : can i say your last what did you say i
17:43 : missed it
17:45 : oh it's all about intrinsic motivation
17:47 : of solving problems
17:49 : yeah yeah yeah trying to trying to get
17:51 : them to
17:53 : motivate themselves intrinsically as
17:55 : much as possible
17:56 : which um unfortunately
18:00 : most games for kids
18:03 : are not that way
18:08 : so yeah it's kind of hard
18:12 : um i try to teach my uh you know to code
18:15 : at one point
18:16 : and i failed kind of because i can't get
18:19 : him
18:19 : to be interested i mean he kind of he
18:22 : likes math
18:23 : but i still can't
18:26 : get him feel like oh i'm excited when i
18:29 : write this code i feel like
18:31 : that's the problem like how can i get
18:34 : him
18:34 : motivated because he just doesn't see
18:36 : this as
18:37 : a thing okay i was trying to teach
18:41 : basically i think um
18:45 : because i think about motivation so much
18:47 : i'm very tuned into it
18:50 : um number one is don't try to
18:53 : create motivation where there is none
18:57 : so okay so if they're not
19:00 : if you ask them hey do you feel like
19:03 : learning
19:04 : to code with me and he's like i don't
19:07 : know
19:08 : is that no you don't have to it's it's
19:10 : just yeah
19:11 : don't don't don't put anything on them
19:15 : it's best if they ask you for it
19:20 : okay yeah yeah it's actually an and and
19:24 : because
19:24 : like in a boot camp that's not possible
19:27 : because like we
19:27 : this is all the time we have you gotta
19:29 : go you gotta go in a boot camp that's
19:32 : completely not possible but with your
19:34 : situation with your nephew
19:36 : no you don't have to rush it you just be
19:38 : patient and wait
19:40 : until he asks for it
19:43 : and um
19:47 : so that's number one i think and
19:51 : and i don't try to i really really try
19:53 : hard not to
19:55 : like when you're a parent you usually
19:58 : try to
19:59 : think of the various good things
20:02 : that they could be doing and then you
20:04 : ask them to do it
20:06 : but uh i i try very hard not to do that
20:08 : i tried very hard to
20:09 : just say okay and
20:13 : and like if i don't want them to be
20:14 : playing video games
20:16 : like i just say okay let's take a break
20:19 : from the screen it's
20:20 : it's no screen time right now
20:24 : but i try to not tell them what they
20:26 : should do
20:27 : instead and let them choose um
20:30 : but yes the way that they
20:36 : so marty is very very
20:39 : curious that's that's something we have
20:41 : that's
20:42 : really valuable because and
20:45 : and linus too but lioness linus is less
20:49 : analytical but he can be if he sees that
20:52 : his brother
20:53 : is doing it then he'll get excited
20:56 : because his brother is doing it
20:58 : so so i kind of i use that dynamic
21:02 : and so marty is like very interested in
21:06 : what i'm doing
21:07 : a lot of times like i i make videos like
21:11 : this
21:11 : and put it on youtube they're actually
21:13 : very interested
21:15 : in that at least at one point they were
21:18 : right because youtube is a big thing for
21:21 : kids
21:22 : nowadays like that's true yeah youtube
21:25 : is like
21:26 : kids watch youtube videos they know
21:28 : about youtubers
21:30 : and which youtuber has how many
21:32 : subscribers and stuff like that
21:34 : so so uh but and then
21:38 : when i and then i play chess and then
21:41 : they watch me play chess and then
21:43 : eventually they got
21:44 : interested in so so they watch me code
21:48 : and then they'll ask for
21:51 : like especially marty he'll ask like oh
21:54 : can i do that
21:56 : um so so that that's how it
21:59 : works uh with me and my children
22:02 : and then and then if they do want to do
22:06 : it
22:06 : then what what you can do to motivate
22:09 : them
22:10 : to actually do the thing is to tailor it
22:13 : to their interest
22:15 : so like if your nephew really likes math
22:20 : then you do some math problem like
22:23 : i like the marty wanted to do the
22:26 : geometry problem
22:29 : like he i guess initially i showed him
22:34 : some how to do something like that in
22:36 : python
22:38 : that was that was just my example and
22:40 : then he just latched on to it and
22:42 : and he was interested in that but you
22:44 : can ask him like
22:45 : what are you doing in math what what
22:48 : what kind of problem do you like or
22:50 : something and then you
22:51 : do that with him maybe that might don't
22:54 : matter
22:56 : yeah maybe i can show you show him like
22:58 : a
22:59 : command line program that can calculate
23:01 : like power of some number
23:03 : he's interested in that obviously oh
23:05 : yeah yeah
23:06 : the kids like really really big numbers
23:10 : yeah does it like how old is he
23:14 : oh he's not uh he's the third third
23:17 : grade
23:18 : i think okay yeah yeah yeah so he
23:20 : probably
23:21 : will like really really large numbers
23:24 : so yeah yeah so so python
23:27 : 3 actually has this big number feature
23:31 : built in
23:32 : where if you do like
23:35 : a really large number it will not blow
23:38 : up
23:39 : it'll like you can do like 2 to the
23:42 : power of
23:44 : i don't know 10 10 000 or something it
23:47 : will give you an actual answer
23:50 : and so that might help
23:53 : like you can do this power of crazy
23:56 : numbers
23:57 : and then it'll actually the numbers will
23:59 : actually show up whereas
24:01 : in most languages that would not work at
24:03 : all
24:08 : yeah yeah